(no subject)

[dr_tectonic]

I thought this was a really interesting article. It turns out that praising kids for "being smart" will actually have an adverse effect on them; it's praise for effort that has a positive effect. (Ganked from e_ticket.)

http://www.nymag.com/news/features/27840

Comments

[portlandpiglet.livejournal.com]

This makes total sense. We want our "smart" children to feel good about themselves, so we praise them by labeling them based on something we've observed about them. But immediately that label becomes a thing to be protected -- if they fail to support the label through their actions, the praise will go away, they fear. The same could be expected of labels like "athletic", "graceful", "popular", "friendly", or any other adjective.

I've discussed the topic of kids and effort on several occasions with Chris and gin314. The high school students with whom they work often will give up if something isn't immediately obvious. They will literally hand in blank assignments and say "I didn't get it," without a mark on the page. So during work parties for the theatre dept., I have observed Chris and Gin often telling the kids, "Do it, and if it doesn't work, we'll figure out why." Trial and error is sometimes the only way to figure out why a lamp doesn't work, for instance. And it's important for kids to have the experience of working through a problem, rather than waiting for some one to tell them how to solve it. I think part of it is that today, kids lives are so controlled, and parents don't have a lot of time, so kids get used to being told what to do, and someone takes over if it's taking too long. They're not lazy, they're just not being taught that thinking for yourself is about more than having opinions -- it's about developing solutions on your own.

[navrins]

Yeah, I figured that one out about myself a year or two ago. It probably cost me years of stagnation.

[zalena.livejournal.com]

Great article, thanks for sharing. Anecdotally, I have had a lot of experiences that mesh with this model, whether it's suspicion of the self esteem model (I succeeded because I worked harder, not because I was smarter) or the experience of not knowing how to deal with failure as a gifted student. (I had math avoidance, but tackled college calc with two hours of daily tutoring to end with a passing grade.)

I think one of the most important things we can teach our children is the value of failure, and how to overcome the many disappointments life will send their way.

[drdeleto.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. Andrew is exactly this way. New challenges usually elicit an "I can't do it" in short order. I find myself emphasizing that most skills take practice, which no matter how smart a kid is is usually true anyway.

As it happens, my dad gave us the advice of never telling the kids they're smart in the first place. There's something to that.

[bryree.livejournal.com]

*lightbulb*

I mean, it didn't explain everything, but it resonated loudly. I've been struggling a lot with my "lack of motivation"* in life stuff. I heard variations of "why don't you try harder, you're smart. You could have skipped the first three grades of elementary school, you should be getting better grades," but it never translated into effort on my part.

I especially see it in my reaction to dating and relationships. 'I just don't get dating/women/attraction, so nevermind.' is a great way to sum up my attitude all too often. $=I'm naturally smart in that area=gonna fail, so why try?

Hmmmm
Now to go ask Navrins how he changed things around...

*Way too many qualifiers on this one too list, so I'll leave it simple as they aren't really applicable to the comment. Suffice it to say that 'lack of motivation' is its label in my head.

[bryree.livejournal.com]

So, as someone still suffering from the stagnation, I must ask: How did you start to turn things around?

[bryree.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

...I'm NOT naturally smart in that area=gonna fail...

[dr-tectonic.livejournal.com]

One of the things I found out about designing an educational games is that failure is where all the learning happens...

[thedragonweaver.livejournal.com]

Heck yeah. That's one of the reason my mom pushed so hard to put me in "gifted" programs— she figured that they would set the gauge higher, so you'd fail— and learn how to cope with it. I sure learned a lot about how procrastination can affect your grade. And how not doing your homework gets you detention. It only took one detention to make an impression, believe me.

If I hadn't learned that lesson in grade school, my procrastination in college might have been harmful! :)

[nehrlich.livejournal.com]

Man, this is a day too late. I just today sent an email to my manager saying that I needed more feedback or recognition. Yes, I'm a praise junkie. *sigh*

[zalena.livejournal.com]

The article didn't say praise was bad, it just said it should be specific. A good manager won't say, "You're smart," he'll say, "Great job writing that program." Feedback isn't always postive sometimes it's, "Let's see what we can do to make fulfillment more efficient."

One of the things the article doesn't address is that by giving specific praise, "Great shot!" instead of "Good game," the child can see that the parent is actually paying attention.

It also didn't deal with things like please and thank you, which I think go a long way to snoothing interactions, particularly in the workplace.

[nehrlich.livejournal.com]

True enough. One of the things that has frustrated me about this current job is a complete absence of feedback, positive or negative. I have even asked for specific feedback several times in one-on-one sessions with my boss and he says "You're doing fine", which is pretty witheringly non-committal. One of the lines in the email I sent was "You get results on the things you pay attention to" contrasting the way he ignored my department compared to the attention he lavishes on the programmers (he's a programmer himself).

Having said all that, I definitely think I suffer from having been told I was smart too often when I was a kid - the symptoms they describe of giving up too easily are all too familiar. I particularly like my variation on it where I procrastinate on something until the last day so that if I don't do well on it, I can claim that I did it in only a few hours. I still haven't learned that it's okay to work really hard at something and fail. Sadly, I'm aware of it, but keep on putting off dealing with it.

[k8cre8.livejournal.com]

Amen. I've been trying to tell that the ethicsgame people for *months* years now. I made that exact statement on Wednesday night at dinner, where I was told I should just design the *real* game now.

The other same principle, in games, is that you want to be able to figure out the puzzle, not have it handed to you. Earning it is better than stumbling into it, which is something else that they still don't quite get.

And, also, one of my other current annoyances with them is that I constantly get praise for stupid stuff, making all praise sound patronizing and ridiculous. The hard stuff? Not so much as a "thank you."

Anyway, (dialing down the bitter) yeah. Sorry for the ranty-ness

[navrins]

I started doing things completely outside my field of expertise.

I know I'm intellectually smart - science and computers and technology and stuff. I started doing theater: acting and directing and management. Stuff I had no reason to expect I needed to be good at, and so didn't feel as strong an adverse reaction to the possibility of not doing well.

It helped.